August 17, 2026

This week’s Monday Morning with Denise highlights BIGiOK’s growing education opportunities and introduces the webcast’s first special guest, Andrew Kirkner, General Counsel for the National Association of Mutual Insurance Companies (NAMIC). Denise and Jerry discuss upcoming programs, including BIGiOK education options, the Young Agents Conference at River Spirit Casino, and the value of member discounts and professional designations. The conversation then turns to mutual holding company conversions, with Andrew explaining how they differ from demutualization, how policyholder ownership rights are preserved, why companies may use the structure to gain financial flexibility, and the regulatory and policyholder approvals required. He also addresses common misconceptions, including concerns about companies going public or policyholders losing control. The episode closes by emphasizing the importance of understanding the facts behind these complex insurance structures and the value of strong associations working on behalf of agents, companies and policyholders.

For a visual overview of Andrew’s presentation, click the flow chart image below.

00:00:12:28 – 00:00:39:06

Well, hello. Happy Monday. Good Monday morning, August 17th, 2026. And 150 degrees out. Still 150 degrees. It’s supposed to be a cool day. I get a mere 98. You kidding me? 90. Yeah. Oh my goodness. Im over it, I never thought I’d say I’m ready for fall. I’m not ready. I know I can spice, but I am ready for a little bit of cooler weather.

00:00:39:12 – 00:00:59:15

It is weird to think 92 would be cool. Isn’t that weird? Yeah. That’s just like this morning. I got up and walked and it was 81. I’m like, I’m sweating like a pig. This is crazy. This is still crazy, I know. And then when it’s when it’s freezing and below zero, we’ll be going out and I will be griping about that because I gripe about that a whole lot more that I gripe about it.

00:00:59:16 – 00:01:21:02

So anyway. Awesome. Listen, I want to do we have some interesting things happening this week. So. So we’re going to kind of jump and then something we are not going to chit chat that long. Yeah. So a few things I want to remind everyone about our education program. You know what was really cool last week I had to update my bio because I’m sending that in for a thing.

00:01:21:04 – 00:01:49:26

And I think I said, I forgot to say, I forgot that I had not updated that my two new designations for the AAI and AAI-M, which is management from the institute. So I updated all of that on my bio because I have two more designations on there, so it’s kind of cool. Incredible program. The institutes. I wish, more people can see kind of all the different designations they need to get on our website and just look at it.

00:01:49:28 – 00:02:17:03

So the other designations that we have, because I know this is important, is the AILP which is out of our, Massachusetts program. And then we have ABEN that we use. We use that like for a legislative download. We have some ethics classes on there, a lot of things. And then I love the IA-MBA. So it’s basically getting a master’s degree in insurance through our North Carolina Association incredible program.

00:02:17:03 – 00:02:48:10

And so any of those you can go and look into that BIGiOK.com/education. And we encourage everyone to take advantage of those. They get member discounts that we weren’t able to do before. We can now. So and there’s a there’s a lot a lot of CE non designations that are that are that “f” word. Yeah. You know what I love to say to a lot of our member agencies that that have you know employees that I’ll say how much spending on education and they might say and it could be upwards of eight, ten, $20,000.

00:02:48:12 – 00:03:13:06

And no joke, because of the investment that we’ve put into our education programs at the Big I we can cut that number in half and have better education with more designations available. So that’s my soapbox. Yeah, we love it. It’s so good. Couple things coming up. It’s coming fast now. The young Agent conference September 16th and 17th at, River Spirit Casino, which is a fun one.

00:03:13:09 – 00:03:35:07

And registrations open. So go ahead and go to BIGiOK.com/YAconference that one usually fills up because they all like to go and have fun. So yes they do. It should be. Yes they do. I know, I know the little Margaritaville I think. Yeah, yeah, a little Margaritaville. Yeah. You’ve been working on some graphics. I’ve done that.

00:03:35:13 – 00:04:02:13

Yeah. Ralph and I. Okay, so we have a special guest today. This is our first time to have a special guest. I know, it’s very exciting. I have a nice shirt for it. You sure did, I did, I did, we told we told Andrew that he was our guinea pig. So we’re going to see our kid and see how he does, like, you know, maybe we should have practiced on someone that, we already knew, but Andrew seems to be a pretty good sport.

00:04:02:13 – 00:04:32:11

So I think he is. I think he is too. So we’re actually looking forward. So today our special guest is Andrew Kirkner. He’s the general counsel for the National Association of Mutual Insurance Companies. NAMIC So a lot of times, you know, only insurance can talk in total acronyms and no one knows what it’s about. And I have to say, I’ve been working with NAMIC on a couple of different projects and actually just saw one of, their representatives whenever I was in Park City for the Exec. conference to.

00:04:32:14 – 00:04:57:01

And sometimes we don’t realize the value of association. So we’re an association for agents. But NAMIC is in association for our mutual insurance companies. Well, all insurance companies. But they had a lot of mutuals, probably the biggest number of that. And, they advocate for all of those because it’s really hard for a company always to be standing there and advocating for themselves.

00:04:57:01 – 00:05:24:25

NAMIC does an incredible job. Worked with them. I’ve seen them. They’re professional. So we’re we’re so happy that that they’re, that we have that, Andrew came to assist us today to help us better understand mutual holding company conversions. Now, Jerry, if you remember, we spent a lot of time at the end of session in May with a bill that, was trying to, deal with mutual insurance companies.

00:05:24:25 – 00:05:42:27

It’s a long story. I’m not going to get into the whole legislation, but, we had to fight it, so we were against it. They were trying to take it on the floor. That ended up not taking it off the floor. But most of it is, is due to misunderstanding about what’s included. So, Andrew actually understands all of that.

00:05:42:27 – 00:06:04:06

We’re going to talk a little bit. So yeah, he’s the professional that understands it all. Now, now that I have his cell phone number, he is the team. Yeah. It’s going to be great. He’s not listening, is he okay. Good. In the background. Let’s bring him on. Yeah, let’s bring him on. Hey, Andrew. How are you? Denise? I’m good.

00:06:04:06 – 00:06:26:00

I’ll tell you in the first five minutes. I’ve heard a meeting at a casino and Margaritaville. So I am all in on the Oklahoma big I for the best. I believe it for definitely the best. You did. You didn’t hear the part that have yourself a number of saying hi any time I heard that as well. You know, I’ll carefully watch it.

00:06:26:02 – 00:06:45:22

Well, we appreciate you being here. We’re looking forward to talking about a few things. You can at least, get us out of the fog of understanding mutual, holding companies, which is. Which is very confusing. And, we’ll kind of go through a series of things. Jerry is going to ask questions. Jerry said he was going to pretend like he was the agent.

00:06:45:22 – 00:06:59:25

I didn’t understand, and I was just going to be the one answering the questions. Pretend? Yeah, the pretend one. Well, you actually are a licensed. I’m. I’m a new agent, though. I know that I’m a young agent at five years old.

00:06:59:27 – 00:07:21:13

The one thing here’s just a fun fact about the Big I of Oklahoma. Everyone in our office is licensed because we felt it was really important that they fully understand what the insurance industry is all about. So, everybody has to go through that very difficult process and stress, but they all do it. It’s all good. So let’s go into a few questions I’m going to let you answer.

00:07:21:13 – 00:07:40:20

I think I don’t I don’t know if you’ve seen them. I’m just going to throw them out. So what is a mutual holding company conversion we’re going to refer to that is MHC. And then how is it different from de-mutualization. Because there has been and I’m not kidding. Bad press confusing press on what it is. And even agents don’t understand it.

00:07:40:20 – 00:08:01:12

So talk to us about what’s the difference from that. And and give de-mutualization. Sure. And if it’s okay with you, Denise, I want to start by just kind of talking about how mutual companies are different, because I think it sets the stage a little bit for why a mutual holding company conversion might occur. As your members know.

00:08:01:12 – 00:08:21:27

Well, because they, you know, they sell different types of insurance from different types of companies, you know, mutual holding company or. Excuse me, mutual companies are different. Mutual companies are owned by their policyholders. They exist to serve their policyholders. And that really informs everything we do at NAMIC And, what our, what our member companies do as well.

00:08:22:00 – 00:08:41:28

That’s not to say stock companies are bad. It just there are differences, fundamental differences in how those companies can raise money. So if you think about a company that writes homeowners insurance in one state in Oklahoma, and they want to go into Texas, and I know that that may be a political issue, especially as we get into football season here.

00:08:41:29 – 00:09:15:05

It’s a little bit yeah, I’ll take away the political issues. But let’s say they wanted to expand their geographic territory, or maybe they wanted to write a new product. Usually that’s going to require capital to do that. Right. So they’re going to need money to, to expand, whether it’s a systems change or product development. The sorts of things like mutual mutual companies are somewhat restricted in how they raise capital so they can go out and get a surplus note, or they can go out and, you know, there’s some reinsurance things they can do, but they’re a little bit, limited in how they can raise money.

00:09:15:09 – 00:09:38:00

Stock companies different. Right? A stock company can go issue stock, they can borrow against their stock, etc.. So, all that is to say, it’s more challenging for a traditional mutual company to raise capital, than it is for a stock company. So let’s talk about a mutual holding company conversion Okay. One of the reasons a company might convert is that capital raise we just talked about.

00:09:38:02 – 00:10:01:12

And the process. I would love to tell you, it’s very simple. It’s not. So I’m going to I’m going to break it down the best I can. And the good news for you is you’ve got a simple brain, in me explaining a complex thing. So hopefully I hopefully I can translate it decently. So when a mutual holding company conversion, a mutual creates a holding company, there’s not a lot in the name here.

00:10:01:12 – 00:10:30:03

A holding company and a at least one, but maybe multiple downstream stock insurance companies. And what that does is that takes the policyholders rights. So you think about an ownership, right. And a mutual company, and transfers them to the holding company. So that’s a lot of holding companies and movements. And I even had to use my hands functionally, that means that the policy holder is still in charge of the holding company.

00:10:30:09 – 00:10:48:27

They still have the right to appoint the board, which is sort of the big, ownership interest. They still have the right to approve bylaws, things like that. And they still maintain that ownership interest. The and I’ll pause there to see if you have questions. And then maybe we can talk a little bit about what that conversion allows.

00:10:49:00 – 00:11:08:05

Allows companies to do well and I was going to say if you’ll just expand a little bit because I think some of the confusion about, you know, did the policyholders lose their rights in that process? But apparently they do not they don’t. And I think it’s important to understand what a what a policyholders rights are today in a mutual, just a traditional mutual company.

00:11:08:07 – 00:11:34:11

So your ownership interest in a mutual company would include things like, the ability to appoint the board. It would include things like the ability to approve governance changes, really what the bylaws dictate. But it doesn’t include things like going into the copy room and making quick personal copies. Right. So so when I say it’s a limited ownership interest, it’s not.

00:11:34:11 – 00:11:56:17

It’s the same way, you know, you’re not a complete owner, so you don’t get to dictate individually, the actions of the insurance company. Instead, policyholders act collectively, according to the governance structure. So the concern and we’ve heard this, about, the conversion process is that the policyholders ownership interest goes away. That’s not the case at all.

00:11:56:17 – 00:12:29:09

In fact, the ownership interest transfers to the holding company, which is the top, of the structure, that the most important of those rights, at least in my opinion, would be the ability to elect the board, and that ownership, maintains what is separated out is, are the contractual rights meaning. And your members will, will get this, acutely, when you enter into a contract with an insurance company, whether it’s a mutual or a stock, you’ve got certain rights under your insurance contract.

00:12:29:12 – 00:12:57:10

You also have certain obligations. So the insurance company agrees to fulfill certain commitments in exchange for the premium payment. And both parties have some obligations. That right. Changes to a different organization, that downstream subsidiary that is created in this process. So what it does is it separates the two rights, but they do not go away. And in fact, or maintained under the plan of reorganization when a company converts.

00:12:57:12 – 00:13:24:25

Okay. Awesome. So, so also part of the confusion is whenever this conversion happens, is that mean it goes public because people keep trying to make it a stock company, but it’s not. Right. So the the I would only modify that a little bit to say that the intermediate company that is created is a stock company, but it’s a stock company without a true market for the stock.

00:13:24:26 – 00:13:46:09

In other words, it can’t there’s not a mechanism for it to go public. So I if it’s helpful, I would like to explain this in the context of an example because that’s how I understand it. Sure. So you create this downstream subsidiary company. That’s where the insurance is written out of, right? I mentioned the contract rights going down to the subsidiary.

00:13:46:11 – 00:14:13:29

That company can take outside investment, but it can only take a minority, of outside investment, meaning it can never sell more than 49.9% of that company. Control can never be taken away from the holding company, which the policy holders. And so I think that’s really important. And I think that’s something that people get wrong about this process.

00:14:14:01 – 00:14:40:16

It wouldn’t be possible for, you know, an outside group to come in and buy control of the insurance company. That interest always has to be below, a majority threshold. So I mentioned capital raise. That’s how a company might bring capital into the system, is to sell a minority share of that company. But again, control cannot be taken away in the mutual holding company model, at least not by, stock sale.

00:14:40:21 – 00:15:03:23

So there is no danger of going public in that sense. Obviously, the policy holders today, in a traditional mutual company could approve something like that, but there are regulatory, barriers in place to to that occurring. Okay. So so that so you go back to the stock option like people. So a normal stock company where you say they can buy stock options and then they can borrow against and all that.

00:15:03:29 – 00:15:31:17

None of that can happen in a mutual holding company. Is that correct. Correct. So what you’d be looking at let’s let’s say for example, and really where you see this is in the context maybe of a joint venture. So let’s say you have an insurance company, Deniece Insurance Company, great insurance company, excellent customer service. And you decide you want to invest in this really cool company that monitors, you know, home water systems for leaks, right?

00:15:31:17 – 00:15:49:12

Your your members will be familiar with, you know, these products and these examples. As an insurance company, you’re looking for investments, and you think that this would be an excellent thing for you to invest in. That might be hard if you are not. You know, if you don’t, if you’re not sitting on a ton of surplus, that might be a hard investment for you to make.

00:15:49:14 – 00:16:12:23

In a mutual holding company structure. You can take on some outside investment, deploy that capital to to purchase or to invest in that outside group, and and maintain that flexibility. So you would take on outside investment. I think the important thing to keep you can I shouldn’t say you definitely will. Right. Important thing to to remember is that control cannot go away.

00:16:12:25 – 00:16:34:16

You can’t sell more than a majority or a majority stake to outside investors. I mean, so I keep hearing you say over and over the the mutual, the the the mutual holders of in the in the company can never lose their power. Let’s call it power, right? I mean, the policyholders are never going to lose that because it’s never going to overtake it.

00:16:34:18 – 00:16:55:17

So give me some examples. So a couple of things. Give me an example of how how mutual companies are utilizing this. And then how is this normal or abnormal or is this I mean how often does it happen. Great questions. So I think over the last we’ll just say the last 20 years. I think that’s a decent snapshot.

00:16:55:19 – 00:17:17:23

We’ve seen more companies utilize the conversion mechanism. By the way, this exists. The ability to convert exists in, almost every state in the country, the states where it doesn’t exist. You can there’s actually a provision in federal law that you can pick up your insurance company and move it to a different company one time in order to convert, which has happened in the past.

00:17:17:25 – 00:17:39:07

I would not say it’s a huge number. For example, NAMIC has 1300 member companies. There are, as best we can estimate there about 75 of these nationally. So it’s a small number at least on the property casualty side, the life side, different calculation. So it is small but it’s increasing and I would call it a trend.

00:17:39:07 – 00:18:01:00

I think more companies are looking to, the conversion as a potential, you know, in order to gain flexibility, either to raise capital or enter into some of those joint ventures. So I mentioned one example already. You may find a really interesting investment or acquisition, that is easier to make in the mutual holding company structure.

00:18:01:02 – 00:18:25:18

There are companies that utilize the mutual holding company structure to bring more capital into their to their business. So, for example, for geographic or product expansion, you might see this technique utilized. And some companies, to be totally frank with you haven’t done anything with it. They’ve converted it over and they are sort of waiting and analyzing to see if there’s opportunities arise down, down the path.

00:18:25:20 – 00:18:49:03

Those companies are generally ones that are really well capitalized, meaning they’ve got a lot of surplus, you know, related to their are up, in relation to their, their commitments. And they’re not looking to raise capital. They don’t have a specific acquisition in mind, but they, you know, they recognize that down the line one may come up and it may give them some flexibility, in that process.

00:18:49:05 – 00:19:07:21

Okay. So if a company so would you, would you create a mutual holding company for a situation if you wanted to do another line of business. So that doesn’t allow in the original company. Is that what you would do? And so you’re thinking about it. You could get it, set it up, put it, you know, set it on a shelf and just wait for an opportunity.

00:19:07:21 – 00:19:29:16

Is that is that a process? You could I think what you’d probably see, especially from from insurers that are well capitalized, is it wouldn’t it may not be worth it to spin up a whole new, you know, a mutual holding company structure to then enter into other business? And there are mechanisms I mentioned, you know, a mutual company can raise capital other ways.

00:19:29:16 – 00:19:48:16

Right. This is not the only way of doing it. I should point out. You know, I don’t want there to be the perception that we’re encouraging folks to convert or that we think it’s the best path. It’s really an individual company determination. You know, the average of our member company is, at last check is is, more than 100 years old.

00:19:48:21 – 00:20:09:08

Wow. So, yeah, so, so mutuals are strong. They’re, you know, they’re dynamic and they change. Right. With the times. I think what you’re seeing is, you know, the world is getting faster and there is more going on. And, and mutual companies are looking for, you know, continuing to do what they’ve done for 100 hundreds of years.

00:20:09:11 – 00:20:34:13

And that’s change and be more flexible. And this, this structure can, provide some additional flexibility there. Okay. So, so in reality, more diversity, whether that be it would be in whatever strength and liability, you know, funding, whatever that would be. So that makes sense. So what about the policy holder. Like what kind of approvals or votes are typically required?

00:20:34:13 – 00:20:53:13

Because I think that would be confusing because as we know, in a mutual company, the policyholders get to vote, they get on the board of directors, things like that, according to how their governance is set up. So how how would it work? And this second tier. Yeah, I it’s it’s interesting. So maybe we will we’ll take those separately.

00:20:53:13 – 00:21:15:18

Let’s talk about how you convert. Right. I think one of the things I’ve heard kind of that’s been the most wrong in Oklahoma, in particular, is the idea that the policyholders don’t get to approve a conversion. That’s not true. And I want to be really clear about that. You know, we’re in in that sense, the policyholders are the makers of their own destiny, right?

00:21:15:18 – 00:21:40:14

They get a choice here. You know, in most states in the country, I can’t speak to everyone, and I wouldn’t I wouldn’t give you a legal advice on Oklahoma, either. By the way. You know, in most states in the country, there’s a pretty clear process that’s laid out. So a company would have to file with its regulator a plan every organization, as part of that reorganization, you have to show the regulator how you’re talking to your policyholders.

00:21:40:17 – 00:22:08:22

You have to show them the notice you’re giving to them. You have to show them the notice for a shareholder or, excuse me, a policyholder meeting. And then finally, you have to have policyholder approval to proceed with a conversion structure. So and that’s before you even get to the regulator’s approval of this plan. My point is, this is not a process in which a couple of executives can sit in a boardroom and say, it’s so right.

00:22:08:22 – 00:22:29:28

There are checks and balances all along the way, including a regulator, which I think is really important to point out. And even after conversion, these entities are required to file holding company filings. So the regulator can see into the business, they can see what’s going on, they can ensure there’s appropriate policyholder protection, and solvency. So that’s the conversion process.

00:22:30:01 – 00:23:02:25

Okay. Wait. So so just just one quick question. So the process in the middle of that, it’s going to go to the regulator first. Right. Because he’s going to it’s not going to go to a policy holder before it’s approved by the regulator. Actually you have to. One of the things you would show to a regulator is that you and so the regulator two different ways it can work and depending on the state that you’re in, you can either go to the regulator in advance and say, this is our plan for communication to the policyholders regulator with sign off on that, you would get approval or the other way.

00:23:02:25 – 00:23:26:20

Right. You can secure the policyholders approval for the regulator. Yeah. The wisest way probably is to ensure that the regulator’s on board with how you’re communicating to all of the owners. Right. You your members will recognize that in terms of things like disclosures on the policies. Sure. The specific language, the font size, those sorts of things, that keep us out of, you know, trouble, you know, on on the policy policies.

00:23:26:20 – 00:23:47:15

Sure. But that’s the analog I draw. Okay. That that actually makes a lot of sense because there’s a little bit of flexibility in there. They just have to decide what path there is and what communication is being done. Right. Yeah. I think the biggest, you know, the biggest thing to put an exclamation point next to is this can’t just happen at the whims of the insurance company.

00:23:47:20 – 00:24:10:08

The policyholders have to approve it and the regulators have to approve it. And so I think the idea that, you know, people are deciding this unilaterally is just not it’s not accurate. It’s not fair. You know, you can you can wobble with the decision, right, if you want. But the process is pretty well laid out under state and you know, it then under state law and regulation.

00:24:10:10 – 00:24:31:07

And there is a regulator involved. And the regulators role is to make sure that the policyholders are being protected in the process. Yeah. Which is which is actually their job. Absolutely. You know, to look at that, I Oklahoma City just had the show. Hamilton blow through. So it’s not just a rumor. It happens like there’s a whole lot of other people.

00:24:31:07 – 00:24:48:00

It’s not just a backroom decision. I want to be a good partner to you. So I’m not going to sing the room where it happened. Okay? Okay. I agree, because that’s what’s going through my mind. I guess, I guess, I guess to, to draw that out a little bit. The room where it happens is not just that the insurance company, it’s at the regulator.

00:24:48:00 – 00:25:11:18

It’s the policyholders. Right. And ultimately with, you know, as you’ve seen, it’s with the public, right, that, you know, the stuff and they’re they’re certainly allowed to express it. I think the point I’d make is just let’s let’s grapple with the facts. Not with not with, the perception. Yeah. It’s it’s really true. I always say that insurance in itself is a complex product.

00:25:11:21 – 00:25:30:03

And so all the innuendos that go from there just make it even more so. So that’s why we trust professionals. That’s why we trust our regulators to look what’s going to be best, because they’re also looking out for the consumer, which I think is really important too, which is their number one. You know, I think is one of their biggest purposes that they have.

00:25:30:05 – 00:25:52:26

Okay. So what do you think? We’ve talked a little bit about this, but what do you think are some of the biggest misconceptions about the conversions that we should correct. Because again, there’s a lot of articles in the paper that are confusing all of that. So let’s kind of go through a couple of those things that are just that are causing, concern.

00:25:52:29 – 00:26:18:01

I mean, I think the biggest thing that I would point to is that, you know, that this is some type of take the money and run situation, right? Yeah. I think there’s some undercurrent or maybe some outright allegations that when when companies convert, they’re trying to take surplus from policyholders. A I would tell you in no uncertain terms, that is not what’s happening.

00:26:18:01 – 00:26:51:04

You can’t you I would I would challenge anyone to find an example for property and casualty insurance company that is converted over where that scenario has happened. It has not, be there are guardrails in place to ensure that that would not happen. One I mentioned is that the policyholders have the ownership interest of the holding company. They they maintain that, certainly, you know, you could have more policyholders come in as a result of a conversion, but say you brought another company in and, and those, those ownership rights may be expanded.

00:26:51:04 – 00:27:14:02

Certainly. But there is no mechanism for, you know, company personnel to take surplus and run with it. That’s not what’s occurring here. I also just, you know, on that point when I wake up in the morning and I’m going out and I’m advocating for our mutual insurance companies, I think we’re the original, you know, policyholder advocates because our job is to look out for the policyholder.

00:27:14:02 – 00:27:41:19

That’s why I mean, that company exists. You know, we don’t have earnings calls. We’re not beholden to our shareholders. We’re there for the policyholders. At NAMIC we treat these mutual holding companies the same way as we treat a traditional mutual company, because they maintain that mutual idea they are with. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, that’s something I think is is a pretty common, misconception.

00:27:41:22 – 00:28:02:05

I think you always need to look at people’s motivations too. That would be true of companies converting, but it would also be true of the opponents for people, for, for companies that are converting. I see companies convert in this space because they are looking for ways to be more dynamic, to invest in technology and yes, at times raise capital the most.

00:28:02:05 – 00:28:33:20

Most folks don’t do that. To me, that is them trying to evolve and better survival. That’s the motivation. I think you have to look at the other side, the folks that are opponents of this and figure out what their motivation is, because it’s not altruistic in all senses. I think I’d put it that way. I think it’s interesting with insurance companies, it’s just philosophical that, you know, we tell them we need you to have a whatever, an A-plus rating, because we need you to have, you know, money set aside.

00:28:33:20 – 00:28:52:21

We we need you to sit on a pot of money because we want to make sure you’re financially stable, simple, versus then when they’re city time. So when they’re there, when they get their ratings and all that and there they are financially, you know, they have their fiduciary responsibility filled then you have people that can go, why are they sitting on a pot of money?

00:28:52:23 – 00:29:17:24

But we want we want that healthy fiduciary experience because it affects all of us. So you also want that money there if there is, you know, large claims. We live in Oklahoma. So we’ve had some you know, we’ve had the worst that has happened. And so we want that to be available. And we want the healthiness of any company because that’s why that’s why they’re rated.

00:29:17:25 – 00:29:38:26

That’s the purpose of it. So I think it’s really hard for the normal consumer to understand really. There’s you know, you have you have all of this, but you want the stability of a really good insurance company. So, okay, is there anything we’ve missed? You’ve done a great job in explaining this. No, I don’t think there’s anything you missed.

00:29:38:26 – 00:29:57:05

I, you know, I would, I would, I would in front of your members, hopefully the ones that are watching, I would just say thank you. To the Big I, Thank you, Big I Oklahoma! You guys are an excellent organization. You spend a lot of time thinking about how to make people’s lives better. It’s not just your members, it’s people they serve.

00:29:57:12 – 00:30:15:01

We try to do the same thing at NAMIC. I will be careful not breaking arm patting ourselves on the back here. But I do want to say thank you, for the opportunity to chat through mutual holding companies. You know, I’d offer to anybody listening, whether you’re pro anti or have more questions. You know, you can reach out to me.

00:30:15:01 – 00:30:32:21

I’ll make sure, at least Jerry had my contact information. I’m happy to provide resources on this, because I think it is, something that’s worth studying considering, and, and at the end of the day, we’re here to serve our policyholders. So that’s, that’s really the focus. And, I’m thankful for the opportunity to explain that.

00:30:32:27 – 00:30:48:07

Well, thank you for taking the time. It was very good way beyond what I was able to do. So we do appreciate it. And we are the same. We appreciate what you do. And then, I mean, our goal also is to support our agents who also support their clients. So I think this is a great way to do it.

00:30:48:12 – 00:31:09:09

Great education information. This is just is fabulous. I think it’s the new modern way that we’re going to, grow in this industry. I think we’re going to see more of it as we go forward. So, yeah. Okay. All right. Jerry. Thank you. Andrew. Andrew. Thanks, Jerry. Thanks. Today we’re going to finish out here.

00:31:09:12 – 00:31:35:11

Well, that was good. That was very good. Yeah. He’s very good. He’s really smart. You know how long it had taken us to try to say that? Yeah. Even with ChatGPT, I don’t think we could. Even with ChatGPT, Ralph. Yes. Definitely. Doing a job. Very good. Okay. Well, listen, stay cool this week it’s hot. And we’re going to start looking hopefully to fall in a couple of weeks.

00:31:35:11 – 00:31:43:12

But until then like everybody’s back to school. So we’re back on schedule. That’s right. All right. Have a good week. You too. Talk to you later. Bye bye.